Episode 6 - Jon Wood, General Manager Finance, Stockland

Transcript Please note that this has been transcribed by AI/Bots so there may be typos and the occasional strange things happening. Richard Holmes 0:04 Welcome to the numbers people podcast in partnership with HBr consulting a leading Sydney executive finance recruitment firm. I'm your host Richard Holmes. JW Jon Wood 0:19 Episodes six, we welcome Jon Wood. Jon is a senior finance executive with over 19 years of experience. Originally from the UK, Jon started his career in chartered and quickly rose through the ranks. he emigrated to Australia in 2010, made the commercial move towards spectrum aquariums, group controller, and GM finance for transport and resources, then move to Stockland. Whereas recently completed a business transformation project. Richard Holmes 0:50 Jon Wood, how are you? I'm good. I'm good today, Richard. Thank you. So thanks for the invite an opportunity to come and do this. Yeah, it's a pleasure. So I've known Jon for a number of years, Jon started his career in audit over in the UK and moved over with KPMG. Recently, he's worked for Broadspectrum, and most recently at Stockland, leading the business transformation of the group there. So john, would you like to tell us more about your story? Oh, yeah, sure. I suppose I've always JW Jon Wood 1:21 Actually, I suppose got to a point where I've had a lot of experiences, I've been very fortunate with what I've done. So actually, my first job I started, I think the first accounting job I had, it was a small firm in Brighton I had a carrier bag full of check stubs and receipts in them and top to pull some counts together for a company called coastal coaches. So having done a degree for three years, I was a little bit shocked by that one, but I got on with it. And that was, that was my starting accounting. So did work, transport firms for a few years, really enjoyed getting into the nuts and bolts of accounting and tax and then move to KPMG. Because one of them, you know, I suppose a big field to play in. So why time at KPMG, I joined the law, do two years in London and go work for a corporate or agile consulting firm, but actually found that, you know, every time I asked for something new and interesting to do, I was given it. So it was a great time in London, it was really booming, it was pre-GFC. So just you know, working on transactions, and all our audit clients are doing fun stuff, and KPMG was changing. So it was a really dynamic time, actually, and had the opportunity to do some international travel. And it was just a very sort of rich sort of five years. JW Jon Wood 2:29 But through that time, we then hit the GFC. And things got a bit less fun. They were still interesting, but probably not the fun. Interesting. So we had a lot of clients, you know, cutting costs, and you know, some of the issues were quite, JW Jon Wood 2:41 not much fun to work through with them, because they were, you know, pretty close to failing some of these businesses. So the bus sort of went a little bit for me, and I thought, well, what's next and again, great thing, but for my KPMG is you you can find something new and the opportunity to come to Sydney rose. So I, you know, didn't think too much of it before. But yeah, that sounds good convinced my girlfriend now wife at the time that that would be good for her too. And so she packed up with me and we off for a couple of months in Indonesia that went to Sydney. I actually expected it to be you know, my, in my head, I had beaches and barbecues and all those things. But actually, I've probably never worked so hard the first couple of years in Sydney. But let's look on some big audit clients, there was the nail simek, but the old lightened business, so work with him for a few years, again, I've always enjoyed companies where things are changing. And I think, you know, certainly that business at that time, it was a lot of change. So very close to that, obviously, auditing that. And then just some internal projects for KPMG. And then did a similar job with LendLease. So another exciting global client at KPMG. So that's what took me out probably the first 10 years of my career, I JW Jon Wood 3:47 really enjoyed KPMG and audit. Like I said, I didn't intend to stay for long but kept finding new stuff, I tend to say yes to stuff. That's how I learned and stay engaged. It's sort of doing new things. And so I look to move out to corporate and join Broadspectrum, which, JW Jon Wood 4:04 again, that kind of change, theme continued, and that was a great place to work. So join just as I'd restructured finance. JW Jon Wood 4:12 I actually, they actually increased the scope of my role before I joined but that was sort of as a mutual agreement. And then they sort of added a couple of components to it. But the components they added were teams that were in their infancy. So they were new teams. And some of the teams hadn't really worked out how to do their job, some of them have even worked out what the job was. So when I walked in on the first day it was it was again a really good It was a tough intro but it was great to come into an organization where everything is kind of like restructured like pushed everything, you know, don't fall apart. But then you're actually in there fixing things, right. So the good thing is if you go in somewhere that's perfect, it's like you know, don't stop up, raise if you're going somewhere with which you know, where there's actually a bit of flux. Everything you do sort of improves things and over six months we we built a what's called a compliance team, but they JW Jon Wood 5:00 focused on contract balance sheets and sort of cleaning up the numbers there and a corporate counting team when I walked into the first day, they had no one leading them even rebuilt that and also, JW Jon Wood 5:11 you know, I did, fortunately, have another team of stat team that was doing really well as group financial controller at the time. So so that team was at least something I could, you know, just do targeted improvements with them. So that was a great run company got taken over. I went through all the acquisition accounting, and then another restructure came in two years later, I took a divisional role on there. So I was in, I suppose, a divisional CFO for to the business units, and really embrace that. And while I was there, I was also involved in the power station business that we had 20% off. So again, by saying yes, I then sort of ended up helping sell that business or brokering the sale to our JV partner. So that was a great experience, not something I expected. JW Jon Wood 5:54 And then, JW Jon Wood 5:56 you know, moving on from Broadspectrum, into Stockland, again, joined in the finance role. So GM operational finance did that for a period of time, and then was asked the CEO, actually to step into the Transformation Program. So that was the code project core. So that was putting in SAP all at once all across the business. And that was a tough, tough project, he had been going for a few years, we had a JW Jon Wood 6:20 quite a big changes I came on, and that was great. Because, again, you know, with me coming on, with lots of change around that project, we had a really strong message around, you know, we know it's been tough, but here's how we're going to do differently, here's how we're going to deliver the project. And, you know, took us, probably a year and a half, we had COVID right at the end. So we had to do all remotely, that was a three-month delay, COVID. But we got to the end, and we got it live. And I'm very proud of that, you know, it's probably one my proudest achievements actually work. But one of the best things about that is actually, you know, coming in on day one, and knowing that we had a good plan to fix them, and what was wrong, and not everything, some of it was pretty good, but fix the stuff that needs to be fixed. And take my team and the broader project team and actually just, you know, give them the right support, and just sort of put, I suppose that JW Jon Wood 7:10 give them enough guidance to redo their role and fulfill their potential. And I think that team over the period, I was involved, you know, not just me, but just having strong sponsorship from the CEO, the executive got aligned, everyone was pushing it, were very clear what we needed to do. And that team just raised its game and just got it all done. So that's been, you know, unexpected, but the real, real pleasure to be involved in but that's all for now live, and then on to the next thing. Sorry, that's Yeah, you can do it. I'll probably do it quick to rehearse it better. No, that's, that's great. And what I love about just listening to you there, Jon, is, it's so simple, you tend to say yes. And by saying, Yes, you've had all these opportunities afforded to you. Richard Holmes 7:54 And that leads me nicely on to the first question I've got for us. What advice would you give someone wanting to pursue a career like yours? Like you've, you've kind of gone through that kind of textbook audit moving up, then you crease developed? Well, as you keep on going? JW Jon Wood 8:10 It's good question. So, JW Jon Wood 8:13 look, I think I'd regard me as having another different or unusual path, but the very path, right, so gonna sound like a broken record here. But you know, that kind of saying yes, and, you know, seeking out new opportunities, but that really sort of suits me. So in terms of what where I feel I'm, I have a strength is I actually embrace new things, doesn't mean I like change, necessarily. People don't instinctively love change, but I love learning new things. And thinking about how I can solve that problem, whatever that problem may be, right? JW Jon Wood 8:46 But what I've come to learn is, you know, I enjoy doing that I've done a lot of it, it's a strength of mine. So it's something where I know I'm good. Right now, if you, you know, some people like, you know, more sort of, they're good at sort of JW Jon Wood 9:02 consistency, a greater detail, it's not that I can't do those things, but you know, where my passion is, and where I feel my strength is, is around that sort of variability and dealing with new stuff. So I think the first thing is around, think about what your strengths are, think about what you enjoy. And I'd probably say the enjoyment part is the most important part. And then, you know, try and fit your career around that. Right? If you can do that, if you're happy at work, if you're engaged at work, if you feel like you're, you know, playing to a strength that's different playing in your comfort zone playing to strength, and I think that can be quite powerful. Right, but you've got to sort of you know, I think try I've done roles where I've, you know, it's like cranking a handle and I can do that role, but is that getting the most out of me am I super happy doing that? No, but that's just because it's not me. Right? Other people really enjoy that and sort of probably not the best description cranky handle but you get the idea you know, like it's, it's what are you good at? What are you going to add value? Where are you happiest at work? Right? Try and play to those strengths. If you can JW Jon Wood 10:00 The great thing about finance careers is, you know, we talk about finance, but you know, geez, within that is such a wide gamut of things that you can do. JW Jon Wood 10:10 You know you can work with a business, you control the business, you can be the Yes, man be the No man, you know, you can be what you like. So, you know, you're in a great spot, if you're in finance to sort of find that. Richard Holmes 10:21 Definitely, in the opportunities, particularly a Broadspectrum Stockland Did, did you go looking for them yourself for or were you tapped on the shoulder, JW Jon Wood 10:32 or like a combination? I think 10 what tends to happen like the interesting one is, JW Jon Wood 10:38 is probably the power station business. So Broadspectrum had a used to have a fund listed fund, it sold 80% of that, and those power assets to a Thai partner, and it kept 20%. JW Jon Wood 10:50 I came in just to really from an audit perspective, from your own perspective, what you get an evaluation, we could give to the auditor's value the business, but it just happened that what I found it really interesting, it's an interesting sector, when you dig into it very complicated, believe it or not, Cole's not complicated with Paris. So, you know, got really got into that valuation and actually build a relationship with the management team. So I started to sort of getting more involved. And as that happened, I got on well with a head of m&a who was responsible for the investment. And, and he brought me in, so it was about sort of me showing interest to being there, but then also being open for that, right. So it was by chance. And then, you know, he left once we got taken over. So put me into it was called shareholder representative, but put me into the board meetings or shareholder meetings and, and someone asked me to try and sell it again. So, you know, it just, there's an example where something happened. JW Jon Wood 11:44 You know, other times in my career, I have sort of, have put my hand up and asked for a new challenge, usually, you know, development meetings, or what have you, but but also being opportunistic, you know, JW Jon Wood 11:55 there was a work trip to Vienna to learn about statistical sampling at KPMG, up and up. So I thought, you know, hey, that sounds like a fun place to go. And I did that role for two years and actually really raised my profile. Now, I didn't choose it, because I thought it would do that. But it just, you know, opportunities to try something new. So it's right place right time, showing an interest and also making a genuine interest if you can get JW Jon Wood 12:19 passionate about is JW Jon Wood 12:22 it's, it's about creating your own look, as well as stuff in that in that position. Then you touch on then the importance of building relationships, that's, I've known you for a while when you come across like you are relational guys, we're talking about relationships, how important is that being fit for Ukraine moving through? Oh, geez, look, I think JW Jon Wood 12:44 it's really important. I think, you know, when you start out, your relationships are a lot narrower, right, you're always going to need, you know, ideally, get away with your boss, or learn to work with your boss is important, right? Because they're your first sponsor. Okay, so I think from a relationship perspective, when I was starting out, you know, having a boss I could connect with and work well with, or work with lots of partners at KPMG. But actually, it was more than managers when I first started that, that were my current bosses, and I needed their support. So, you know, work with those people, I think is I've got sort of, I suppose, progressed through my career, my relationships have got much broader. And that's actually where it really becomes an inhibitor, you know, when I started work, you know, go and go and take some, you know, go go go into the stock count, count job, okay, go to the photocopying job, I can't do that, right. So not really very important to have relationships there. Don't be rude to people, but you know, it's okay. You know, in the role of just sort of finished at Stockland, where, you know, you're leading a business to a really big transformation, a huge change. 13:51 Right. Now, my JW Jon Wood 13:52 role was business leader, right? Now, I can't lead that, what I can do is I can engage all the business lead leaders, or lead them I suppose. But engage them so that they're that present for their team, and they're helping push things through. Right? So it then becomes those relationships are really important. So if I go there, and as a tough decision, or whatever, I might get my outcome that day. But if I rub that person up the wrong way, if I've got it in a suboptimal way, but you know, steamrolled it, you know, they're going to be less inclined down the track. So what I've found is, you know, the more you sort of start to go across an organization, the more senior that relationship piece becomes really important. And a lot of time, you've got to kind of work out well, you know, is there a compromise, I'm very big on principles. I think it's my UK accounting background, but you know, if we can put the principle around something and we can follow it instinctively, that's where I'm happiest. But the problem with that is it does make you a little bit inflexible, and sometimes, you know, the outcome is going to be much better. If you flex a little bit, give a little bit and keep the relationship in a good spot. So you'll hear certainly recently I've heard people talk about nuance leadership styles, right? So sort of flexing your leadership style, you know, managing the relationship to how you're going to get the best outcome and the situation. And that's a really hard skill, I would say, I've got a bit of work there to improve that. But but but actually, when it was explained to me as a concept, and you might have heard of it years ago, but it's sort of relatively new to me, but be relevant, very relevant to what I've done. And thinking about that. It was a bit of awakening around what how can I actually take that and apply that? And how can I be different for that person? Because I know this is what they want. This is what I need. And I bring that together. And how do I keep that relationship? Good? Yeah. And actually, if you can do those things in the relationship will be good. Because at the end of the day, very few people go to work going, I want to make an enemy today, or I want to go with people. It's true. It's about making sure you don't, you know, slip on a banana skins kind of thing. So yeah, super important. And probably more important than technical skills as you progress. Definitely. Richard Holmes 15:56 And with your career, Jon, what have been the hurdles you've faced? from from from your KPMG days? And how have you overcome them? Because you're obviously very good at your job, and you've got good strong relationship skills, what what are, what are the big things? JW Jon Wood 16:12 Oh, geez, look, I mean, this is probably hurdles every day. Right? Like, I think, yeah, one of the things is, I would say, you know, in aggregate, I'd be very proud of my career and say, yeah, I've been, you know, relatively successful, right, in terms of, you know, succeeding in these roles and these roles, and whatever else, you know, I've got a bit more to give. But within that is also a failure. So when you think about hurdles, there's been times where things have not gone well. Right. So the first thing is in relationships is a good place to start if you're not getting on with a manager, or if you have a difficult stakeholder, you know, that can be a huge hurdle. Right? And how do you recover from that, because a lot of time, it's really tempting to throw your arms up, I can't deal with this can speak to your boss, so and so's being awful or whatever, but But actually, the better way to do it is sort of face into it and try and work out how you can deal with it. But certainly, you know, whether it's relationships or things just haven't gone, right, there's always going to be a failure within a within the career. And I think the first thing is just how you recover from that, and how you take your lessons and you apply them down the tracks, there's been plenty of examples where, you know, things could have gone better. And you sort of sitting there and critique yourself, and what could I have done, and then you try and try and catch yourself next time. So you know, I'm not saying I'm an expert at it, but it's something I've always tried to do is sort of learning from mistakes along the way, you know, and there have also been things like timing. So what probably learned is, you know, being a bit patient, and understanding that your career and someone gave me this advice early on, and I dismissed it at the time, because I was 23, or 24, one of the people voted that year, you know, not so long by but he said, You know, you're gonna look back in your life, you're not going to care if you made manager or senior manager in a given year, it doesn't matter. You know, the fact that you made it, and then, you know, you took whatever party took that's important. And I think that sort of longer term view is really important as well. And it's definitely been times where, you know, things haven't moved as quickly as I want. JW Jon Wood 18:18 And it's just sometimes it is about being patient and realizing your long game. Yeah, that's true. That's, that's actually great advice, john. And we see a lot of people in the recruitment space, where the want your job, Richard Holmes 18:31 kind of thing and we try to kind of pull them back a bit and try and manage your expectations. But it's, it's interesting, isn't it? It's, it's quite fascinating. So how, how do you continue to keep on learning in your role? JW Jon Wood 18:44 Oh, geez, well, I mean, you know, a lot, a lot of it is, a lot of it is around the new experiences like I joined stuff, and I, you know, I joined the different roles, I didn't expect to get asked to do this sort of transformation role I did. So, you know, that has been a huge learning curve. For me, I've always been around change, I've always kind of been a part of it and understood it. And it was SAP-based program. So I've been around SAP. So I took a lot of knowledge that I had from other things, but actually going into a new role where it's like, right now you could actually deliver this thing. And, you know, I was working, it was co-leadership with the gym and technology. So that was kind of the business side, which is me, and it was a technology scientist, him and we work together. And it was really great, actually. But yeah, that was just every day It was new learning for me. You know, so I think it's around those new opportunities. But even in a, you know, in any company, things change, right? And you sort of define your learning experience yourself to some degree, right? So, you know, if there's a new technical standard, if there's a new system going in, just embrace it, you know, it's an opportunity to learn. It may even be just thinking about how you manage your stakeholders, right? Or how do you do this new thing at work? So it's about, you know, tweaking and finding things we go, Okay, what am I, what am I learning what we're getting out of this and it could just be a subtle thing you're actually dealing with with your colleagues, right? Because you know, everything changes, I think it's that adaption to change is a learning experience for me. Richard Holmes 20:08 Yeah, of course, it was here in with when you reflect on your career, you've worked with some great people. Has anyone influenced you the most? When you reflect back? Or did you have mentors, if you will? JW Jon Wood 20:21 I am. It's funny, actually. I've always tended, you know, certainly when I was younger, and I regret, I say regret and unnecessary and credit, I probably would advise myself to do it differently. I never really sought out a mentor. And I didn't instinctively bring problems to others, I like to solve them myself. Just kind of, I don't know why I did it that way. But it was, it's only really recently where, you know, I've actually saw where I think the challenge is, particularly around relationships, and people, so you can't go read a technical book, or in how you deal with that person, you've got to actually work it out. And I must admit, probably, over the last few years, I've been much more aware that I can go and ask my boss for a bit of advice, I can go and, you know, speak to someone else who knows that person better than me, you know, I can do these things. And they're helpful. Right? So, you know, I would say, a few years ago, I didn't instinctively do that. But I think, you know, all the times in my career that were really helped. Yes, Richard Holmes 21:19 I, there's been a couple of times where I have had a good relationship, usually with my manager. JW Jon Wood 22:38 basic stuff, like how you're disciplined and how you deliver things, that's important. And you can also kind of think about your end game and, and again, your relationships and things. So there's been a few moments like that. It's interesting, Jon isn't it the way I think when you're at the start your career, it's, it's kind of looked, it's frowned upon to ask for advice from someone. So a more senior, it's something that you just get, I think it comes with confidence and experience that you can go to someone and understand and be confident asking the questions. Yeah, I think it depends on the organization. Because what I've seen, and a bit of a trend around, I think mentoring is more of a, Richard Holmes 23:12 you know, there's more awareness of it now. And certainly Stockland, definitely at prospection. We were starting to look at who is our he's our top talent, and do we bring to the mentoring into that. So I think, I think people since Hr teams are more aware of the benefits of mentoring, I think people are more open. So it's time to get there. But to your point, you know, is as broad as it could be no. And I think the problem is that people you want to speak to often very busy, so it's got to be that conscious change. So I think the thing for me is, you know, I think your manager is always a great start point. But also asking your manager, can you know, is there someone I can link in with or even just forming informal friendships, right? And, you know, can with colleagues help and talk things through with them, because they'll have the context, right, and you don't have to, you know, if I have that I'd have to pull my wife with at home and like, she's grateful. So um, you know, it's probably a bit on you finding the right people. You have confidence in moving forward. Jon, you've just done this business transformation you've gone live with, with SAP? What, in your opinion, what's what does the future of finance look like to you over the next 10 years? Richard Holmes 24:19 What space we're going to be in? JW Jon Wood 24:22 Yeah, it's funny, like, I think the future of finance discussion probably hasn't changed too much in some respects. But it's probably more real now. Right. And what I mean by that is, you know, the future finances absolutely still, you know, we're going to be using algorithms and machine learning to improve transactional efficiency. But we've been saying that for years, right. But I think there's now maturity and processes and a bit more of an understanding. I think what we're also seeing is those types of technologies are getting better at working with old systems might accept that things aren't perfect. So I think there is a definitely a kind of technology lead piece to finance. You know, and I think that's around transactional efficiency. That's, that's definitely part of the future of Finance. I think, you know, COVID is an interesting dimension, because I think we've talked a lot about, you know, that business partnering piece, you know, how do we sensitize and flex budgets and understand drivers and the impact that they're having on finance? I think with COVID, you know, the level of uncertainties, you know, shot upright exponentially more, even if we get a vaccine, it's still uncertain. I think that I think the future of finance, finance has to be more agile, it has to be better at reporting and data. And I think also, I'm a big fan of value drivers, which is constantly been around for years. Right, but think, you know, what, in the business is actually going to move the dial and make a difference? And how am I going to monitoring change that I have? What am I going to do? How am I going to explain to the business if they do this thing, that it's going to, it's going to move it off for them? Right. So I think, with COVID, I think that element of partnering has to come more to the fore for me. So I think that will, that will definitely be something we see. And I think also linked to that is around that variability. Right. So sensitizing things, you know, you set one budget, but actually, how are you going to sensitize the budget? How are you going to do that? So I think the sort of, you know, its future, but its immediate future? And how do you come up with better ways to do that? And again, it's, it's all going to be about technology, how do you link technology? How do you use flexible analytics platforms? Right? That's, that's definitely the future. And the other thing is around, you know, pushing to self serve, and you know, how do you actually get the business doing more themselves? And so, you know, that can be around transactional processing, but also around reporting and insights, we're seeing a big push for that, or certainly I am. So definitely the future of finance, like everywhere is going to be full of technology and disruption. And what I also think, personally, is that you know, people aren't going to ever come away from large platforms like SAP, but there's going to be a big push to go well, how can I use that big platform SAP with a much more nimble thing, that is going to be cheap to put in, quick, you know, faster file if as the file and fit to the organization? So I think you know, all those things. Yeah. Richard Holmes 27:03 It's exciting, isn't it? isn't what it is ahead of us in this week. But I love your point earlier on there where the future of finances is here. It's been it's been here. Yeah, the last few years, it's not as fast as what people think it's gonna be, it's not like we're going to flick a switch in five years. It's not gonna be doing, JW Jon Wood 27:21 we're not but I think the hyper don't look forward and use the time for saying this. But I really think that we're much closer than we've, we've been before, because people can see the technology can see the potential. But I think we're also here. You know, I think from a finance perspective, how do you, how do you future proof your career right now? Yeah. So that we always talk about and I think it's just about being, again, close to the change in accepting the change, getting into it. Richard Holmes 27:45 And then being on trial as well. JW Jon Wood 27:46 Which I can Richard Holmes 27:47 imagine with your recent jobs, john, there are times where it's pretty stressful the pressures on when you get overwhelmed or feel the pressure how, Richard Holmes 27:57 what do you do? JW Jon Wood 28:01 The question I, I actually am quite fortunate, I quite like the bus sometimes. And, you know, I, I think if things are full-on, then you know, a good way to de-stress yourself is make a list and start working through the list. Right? And if you go through your list and you go to their wallet, that's not going to matter today, then you drop it. So I think there's a bit around how you manage yourself when you approach the problems and the challenges. I think the other thing with prioritization, and I'm not very good at this specific one, because I often follow my interests, right? But actually, following what your boss wants is a pretty good way of, you know, relieving the stress, you're making them happy, right? But I think make the list, start working through it. But for me, you know, different points in my life. You know, I would sometimes, like sometimes just go right? That's it for the day, I'm done. I can't do any more. And I'd go out with friends. Right? So have a night out. Enjoy yourself, right? Certainly, when I was younger, you know, other options. Exercise is never, you know, everyone says exercise, but they sexy actually works, I think, certainly worked for me. So I used to do a lot of exercise. And then now it's more around well, family and going home and doing bedtime, and those kinds of things where, you know, at the end of the day, my daughter doesn't much care about my prioritized list at work, but she'd love to love to me to read her about Louis. So you know, that's a bit of time where you can just switch off focus on a different thing. So it's around those sort of defining those points where you can change it, but also managing the problem right Richard Holmes 29:30 now, that's great advice. And knowing what you know now, Jon, what advice would you give to younger self? JW Jon Wood 29:38 So I actually think I've probably touched JW Jon Wood 29:41 touching a bit too that this discussion already, but I think I certainly think there's there's a piece here around I think at times in my career, I've always followed my interests and passion and sometimes, you know, have I always done exactly what my boss wants, you know, and I've generally Yes, but there are times where I know I probably should have focused more on what they wanted rather than my interest, certainly when I was younger, right, because I just, you know, I just stopped wanting to do that thing. It was fun or interesting. And sometimes, you know, when I was in an audit firm, they just want the engagement letter out that day, right. So going to the engagement letter, and work on that, you know, interesting thing over there. So I think for me, you know, that sort of focus a bit more on what my boss wants, there's a saying around what interests my boss fascinates me. It's a bit of an old school saying, but it's actually quite apt. And probably more so as you get through the ranks. So that's definitely something I'd say. I think the other thing is mentoring, you know, I am reflection could have taken more opportunities to learn from others could have taken advice on him and probably could have avoided some lessons that I learned myself, maybe in a bit of a harder way. I think that's, you know, in some respects, you have the hard lesson, you remember it right. But definitely reaching out to mentors and Latino and using those networks more, certainly, in my early in middle years of my career, if you like would have been booming. Great. So I think you know, try and find some mentors and do what your boss wants. Yeah, yeah. Richard Holmes 31:10 That's awesome. Well, Jon, absolutely. A pleasure to have you on the numbers people podcast, you've been a great guest, and hopefully, we'll be in touch again soon. Thanks, Richard. I JW Jon Wood 31:19 am I've enjoyed, enjoy talking to you. So thanks for the invite again. Excellent, really appreciate it, john. Richard Holmes 31:23 Thanks.