Episode 5 - Lisa Jennings, CFO, Corelogic

Transcript Please note that this has been transcribed by AI/Bots so there may be typos and the occasional strange things happening. Richard Holmes 0:02 Welcome to the numbers people podcast in partnership with HBr consulting a leading Sydney executive finance recruitment firm. I'm your host, Richard Holmes. Episode Five we welcome Lisa Jennings. Lisa is the CFO and acting country manager for core logic here in Australia in New Zealand. With over 15 years experience Lisa is a CA qualified accountant, starting her career with PwC in the UK, and then emigrated to Australia. She made the commercial move to Stockland and then to call logic and progress through to her current role. Lisa, how are you? Lisa Jennings 0:45 I'm very well, thanks for checking, yourself?. Richard Holmes 0:47 I'm very good. Very good. Thanks for asking. I've known Lisa Jones for a number of years from her PwC days through to Stockland. To her current role at core logic. Lisa is a great example of yourself in the right position and progressing through your career. And when she left Stockland she joined his senior finance manager at core logic progressed through to GM finance CFO and is now the acting country manager for core logic here in Australia and New Zealand. Lisa, do you want to tell me a bit more about your story? Lisa Jennings 1:15 Yes, thanks, Richard. Um, just by way of background, very traditional finance career in terms of starting with Price Waterhouse Coopers worked here in Australia after qualifying in the UK and backpacked around Southeast Asia and Australia, New Zealand and never went home. And that was around 20 years ago now. So start my career PwC in Sydney chose me as an experience made a lot of friends and the friends I made that I still have today. So a great way to network really well, working for one of the big four. I was there working in assurance in the audit capacity. And towards the latter stages, I was also approved manager for the Division I was looking after, as well. So that meant working with partners and working with a new grads came in and everything in between are very, very full-on roll. And of course, being in PwC, you know, you still have all your targets to hit. But I thoroughly enjoyed it. And to be it's still one of my operations roles because I learned so much about people and how important it is to understand what the consensus is of any group, and how that influences decision making. From there, I decided to branch out to commercial as many of us do, and took a role with Stockland in a financial reporting department, looking after the best and fun side and also working on the group, financial statements as well. Really great career to move into commercial, but still retaining that very strong finance roots up most of us do have and worked there for two and a half years and thoroughly enjoyed myself and it was a great role grid company. And then I was approached by somebody I used to work with PricewaterhouseCoopers about a role at core logic. And at the time when I joined up in here each years now, when I joined, I was just looking after the month-end management accounts for more traditional financial controller role in over the years that evolved to take on more and more tasks such as rolling out corporate systems, integrating more with our US parents taken on mergers and acquisitions. And in the time we've done, I think about five acquisitions to divestments as a really great experience taken on forecasting, planning, creating a high performing team, creating a set of finance business partners. And for a time I stepped out the finance function and moved into the executive team in a strategic projects role, which was really about driving business performance are really nice and neat role for anybody in that finance world who wants to roll it out more into the business to get a more commercial understanding. And I did that before coming back into the CFO role back in April 19. And just more recently, an opportunity came up to be the country manager of New Zealand in the interim, and I've been doing that for six months now and again, wonderful experience of where I'm at now. Richard Holmes 4:27 That's great. And I think I think your story literally is just one of progression, putting yourself in the right companies, aligning yourself with the right people. It's good to see you get to get to where you have and what advice would you give to someone wanting to pursue a career like yours because you could I guess, when you look at your background Lisi it's quite textbook in terms of career path and career development, but what advice would you give? Lisa Jennings 4:51 I think the best advice I could give anyone and I still apply this to myself today, it's just about who you are as a person naturally I think one thing to always be is to remain curious, always, always challenge the status quo. And this is why we're so privileged to be in that finance role where we can be perceived. And we are objective by nature. And so coming in with a fresh perspective, being interested to learn, willing to help put yourself in those meetings in the business forum, that you know, ordinarily don't have to be accurate, you bring your insights, you bring your value, if you just constantly have that drive, to learn more to understand, decision making, to understand business demands to understand departmental challenges, you can come in, listen, and learn, and help and guide, you'll put yourself in a great position from there just to really take all that on board. And you will naturally find that you'll make better more informed decisions and better business outcomes. And I think if you retain that, I it should put you in a really, really good position for your career progression. Richard Holmes 6:06 That's, that's really good advice. Lisa, in your point about being curious as well is, is this ever-present, isn't it? It's not just about being curious at the start, the Start Here creates it's constant, constant learning for yourself Exactly. What's the biggest area related to your role right now what but you are curious about and why. Lisa Jennings 6:27 And in relation to the finance function, and all that entails just very much the same as life, everything's moving at a much faster pace than it ever has before. the demands of constantly work many of us work across many times on so currently looking after New Zealand and I work with the US, and then also the UK. And if you if you're not careful, you could find yourself working 24 hours around different time zones. And so with that comes a lot of challenges that you've got to work through, and things such as advancing technologies that we have these days, you've really must stay at the forefront, because he can get left behind pretty quickly, not only in the finance function but also in the business in general. So really staying on top and making sure you're connected very strongly with a technology team, and your finance network, just to see what's going on what are the new tools that are out there. And ultimately, even though life moving at a faster pace, those technology tools will make your life easier, it gives you more capacity. And what you need is capacity and time to think and make better decisions as well. Something that will trailed it core logic, which fascinates me is the use of robotics, as well, we have about five bucks, we use them in our CLI operations function currently. And what we're just working on a project now is how to apply them to the finance function, and have them look over our processes and just see what can be automated pretty quickly. And that doesn't mean I roll reduction in any form. What it means is my team has more time to spend in the business, helping guide and shaping the organization for the future. And I think also, even though you might not always be customer-facing you all every single day, whether your customers external or internal, and by customer mean stakeholder who relies on something from you, um, people want these days real-time results and want them yesterday, and not only to the one the reports, and you know, the facts, what we now have to provide his finance leaders, his analysis, we've got to provide insight, it will go to give options, and we've got to get games. And that doesn't come You know, just on a piece of paper, you've really got to think through it. So those tools that we have out there now, I will really create time for us to do more of the thinking more of a strategic role that we need to play. Richard Holmes 9:02 No, that's a that's great, isn't it? And you touched on a couple of things at least time management you. You're the CFO, you're the country manager, you're looking after Australia, New Zealand, America, how do you manage your time? I mean, it's pulled every which way? Lisa Jennings 9:19 Yes, I do have a wonderful executive assistant who, who really helps me and we're a formidable team. And I think you really have to take guidance from people around you just on who needs the time and where you should be spending that. And I think you have to be to a degree quite ruthless with that time as well. You really have to plan ahead, know what needs to be done, prioritize reprioritize and you just have to find the time to invest in when needs the most in sometimes that week, you may not get to all of your one on ones or your catch ups or your interlock still meetings. But if you've done the hard work Work and being interested in curious all the way through your career, that will give you a little bit of lead time to move into areas that you need to spend more time and pull back on other areas where people come work out how to access you whether you know you answer a question, email, instead of a phone call, or whether you have a shot late at night, there's a lot of flexibility in that if you put in the hard yards at the start and the efforts into those relationships, I think, careful planning, prioritize and then prioritize again, and then invest where you need the most. And what will give the best outcome not only for the team, but for the business. Richard Holmes 10:38 No, that's, that's great. And you talked about technology and the use of technology, with your own curiosity around but with the natural core logic, it's the technology was the data driven business. But with that, with that interesting technologies are driven by yourself, or is that? Going back to time do you have the time to invest in, in developing yourself in these new technologies? Lisa Jennings 11:04 I create the time for something that's so critical. So So yes, I do from there. And as I say, the reason why I'm starting to get so involved in it is just Nikki and my own natural curiosity. And I think when you're interested in you're willing to learn, so I just asked her the technology team. So we have a great CTO, we have a great us our technology function, and also have a great team who are also curious and willing to learn. So if I can always make certain meetings about the technical advances, I'll send somebody from my team who finance business partner, I'll say, tell me about the meeting. What was the key outcomes? If I can't personally go myself, and then if there's any questions, I'll bring anyone in the tech team just to kind of ask through that, I'll do some online learning myself. But I do try and go along to town halls, and various functions, so I can keep abreast of what we are working on. But then, of course, one natural way that I managed to get across what we need to do is the finance, you know, where proven spending where sheep and how that looks, it allows us to ask all our questions to make sure that we are investing in the right technologies. And it can be questions such as, you know, did you do your due diligence around a suite of suppliers? Why isn't this one? Do we get better leverage? If we're a global organization? There's all sorts of questions on there, how will it work? in different instances? Can we use our own instance Australia? Do we need to be on the US network? There's all sorts of different things that come along. And I think if you start at any outset is any good CTO will already good executive team will you just start the very top and you see what are the outcomes that we all want, and kind of worked out and rather than saying, This is what the tool has, and working around it. So I think all of that being interested, allows me to help shift some of those decisions, which is really fantastic experience as well. Richard Holmes 12:52 That's, that's great. And in your church, and you surrounded yourself with some good people, not just your EA, but you're the person from your network from PwC important across the college in the first place who is who has influenced you the most or is the several people. Lisa Jennings 13:09 Um, oh, it's a it's a collective of many, many people. And all, you know, if I was to go through and list them out there would all seem very, very different on the surface. But one thing that when I, when I look back to see who has influenced me and helped shape me, one thing that I do have in common, all of those people is have always really been very insightful. I know it sounds really cliche, but always very forward thinking. So always thinking ahead, never in, in the present moment, always thinking how this point applies, you know, five years down the road, so I could see things far beyond where I could see them at the time. And just watching how that works, it really helps you to become more influential, if you're thinking forward rather than just to the point in time. People I appreciate it, quite a straightforward direct person in nature. And therefore I tend to respect those traits and in leaders because I think it's required, yes, you have a balance but if you are able to cut through the issues and some of that white noise that goes around in certain forums, you know, and personal persuasion, watching and observing how that works in a room weathers, you know, many different opinions, many different Eagles have been able to navigate through that have always been drawn to those who are able to influence an outcome at the very start without necessarily, you know, directly challenging anyone but getting back to he Civ moment and realizing that we're all on the same page and we'll walk out that meeting. I find that Very, very insightful. And again, I'm always surrounded by people who are interested and know something more than me, as well think even to a degree influenced by my team. And the reason why you gotta have that real open communication, to have a great team, everybody will say that, but I really, really do. And, in that, when we're in meetings, all for having teammates, and we're in forums, they're equally open to challenge me as I am open to challenging them. And you must be open to challenge, you must be open to a different opinion, even if you don't agree. But you must, must seek out the reason why somebody thinks so we have to do and that will just help you understand the drive for their decisions, which may not always be apparent, but could be something underlying influences. So you must always have a perspective. And all the people that have been influenced by have had a great perspective on many different areas. And that's been a throughout my whole career. And I feel very fortunate that couldn't have just one. It's definitely a collection of people. So you should always seek out those in the business and work very closely with them to help yourself. Richard Holmes 16:08 Just listening to you, Lisa, you're very self aware, it sounds like you're a good listener yourself. And that self-awareness is that just a natural thing for you. Or if you kind of learned that self-awareness and built on it throughout your career, Lisa Jennings 16:24 I haven't been acutely aware of it. So I'd like to think it's more unnatural self awareness and accompany you know, taking in many forms, you know, coming to a country or in your country, you know, when you're traveling makes you a little bit more self aware. You know, starting with a whole new set of friends that you've got to make makes you a lot more self aware. come in to new organizations makes me be self aware. And I think I wouldn't say self aware, but I think I'm very open. I'm very open to opinion, I'm very open to perspective, I'm very open to listening. And I think by two course that makes you naturally more self aware about what you need to do in whatever role you serve, or whatever position you're doing. So I think just again, you know that curiousness helps you be self aware. But what you need to do so if you naturally interested. I think it makes you aware enough of what's going on and how to read the room and to see where things are heading, which will make you a better leader in the long run. Richard Holmes 17:32 No, that's that's great. And what I did love about what you said just earlier, Lisa, you said you learn from your own team, which again, is just great self awareness, isn't it? You want to know so it looks when you have different people in your team that no more in a specific area. It's great, but you've got that kind of open forum with your team? It's Yes. Lisa Jennings 17:51 Try to and when you're doing is I've just said you know, several times on several different roles are always looking to do the next thing I'm always looking a little bit forwarded in with that thought allows my team to come in I'm always thinking about the team and think okay, which opportunities can I give them now? How can I help them progress even if it isn't necessarily in title or role? Or, you know, I function? I'm always really encouraging them to step outside and move into the business. Yeah, why don't you work in that team pocket with this journey to create pacify Okay, we'll move your work around and make sure you know, other people train up cross train, so that if there's something a great opportunity comes up, any one of us can jump on in on that. And that's critical to help that team. And I bet you this happens now but you know how the CM team for five years. And that's quite unusual in the finance roles. And you know, one of the ladies of my team, we've worked together, we started together, it's just been there eight years and had a variety of roles. And I always say you're happy, you know, you're learning. And she said, I'm learning every day. And you've got to, you've got to invest the time your team to create those opportunities as well. You must give them the opportunities that you seek as well. And not everybody wants something and you'll acknowledge output will be many who do and whether they know to do or don't do you must be aware of the limitations and the potential that your team has. If you say that potential and don't quite believe in as many people don't you just call upon us and invest in it and encouragement. And before the note we'll have this natural progression into a whole new different type of leader different type of finance partner that ever did before and if it happens naturally, and when they're not necessarily aware of the developments making that's when you know you've done your job right. Richard Holmes 19:47 Let's I agree with everything you say there. Again, it comes back to, to your collective experiences and it can be not being self-aware for your team and how they're experiencing things. But yeah, credit si se I mean, that's in terms of tenure of stuff is quite unique. Yeah. But nowadays, I mean, it's it says a lot in itself. And we've talked about a lot of the positive things in Ukraine. What hurdles? Have you personally faced in that? How did you overcome them? Lisa Jennings 20:15 Um, yeah, I mean, you know, I could go on all day about your lovely and you learn from them. What? Well, maybe is something that might be a little bit interesting is, I would say, naturally, I'm an introvert by nature, and I don't mean, I'm off the spectrum introvert. And when you do all those tests, I'll be in the middle, but I'm naturally a quite a person. And, and not because I'm shy or lack confidence in any way. That's certainly not the case. And anybody who knows me, is, you know, beat me for the first time, or, I have known me for a long time, well, no, I am definitely confident I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm going to say. But I think just in terms of being an introvert, you know, I hope that doesn't offer some fire. But if you're quieter, and you take the time, and you're one of those people in the meeting, who I'll listen, and I'll wait till the end, before making a comment, or somebody else makes a comment, I won't necessarily jump on and say the same thing, I think sometimes can give you the perception that you you may not be interested, or you're on the fence or something to that degree. And it hasn't happened to me, but I can see how others who don't necessarily have that awareness of who they are, you know, can be judged slightly differently. So I think where this comes through, where it hasn't been so much of a challenge for me is, again, I keep going back to the same thing, I'm so passionate what I'm doing, I'm so passionate about learning, and, you know, confident making a call, and I don't mind going against the grim. And I don't mind calling out something that's obvious. And I don't mind, you know, backing it at consensus and not having to say that. So I think all of that has helped me overcome what may be perceived as a challenge. And also, the second thing with being more introvert is, you get all your energy internally, and you need, sometimes you just need to sit there and go, I just need five minutes for myself, I'm gonna regroup and get there. So I think, you know, I find that time, myself. And it's very difficult to find that quality time, you know, just to kind of sit when you go from meat to meat in different time zones, you've got to be on and you've got to be energized. And you've got to be present in all of those forums. So it's just really, for me to find that way to kind of build my own energy resources back home. And I do through a variety of ways. So I think that's somewhat of a challenge to always be on, to always be engaged to be meeting with a lot of people and I much prefer one on one meetings to, you know, huge group meetings, sometimes I think the dynamic and the relationship that you can build in a one on one is very different. But I also enjoy, you know, the buzz and the energy of a big group and you know, all passionately talking about things. So I wouldn't say it's a challenge, but something that I'm aware of by nature that I do need some time for myself just to sit and reflect. And I make sure I find that time in that as well. Yeah. Richard Holmes 23:21 When you do feel overwhelmed, what what do you do? What one what's your kind of go to things come on, relax yourself and get yourself back on track. Lisa Jennings 23:30 Anybody who knows me will know this. And I make lists. I have lists on this. And I have lists about lists. And I do like I mean, in my personal life as well. And for whatever reason, it certainly helps me without falling. So I always have a list. People laugh at me work I walk around with a little food Can I have a little highlighter, and I some days I might just write on me a cup of tea just so I can cross it off the list. Some days I'll do that. No, I I used to but I don't anymore. So I make the list. And I just see it all on paper and I know that nothing's buzzing around and nothing got missed. And when you become overwhelmed, I think it's partly because you feel you've missed something you feel you're not on top of things. You haven't gone through your emails. You know, you feel now you can find Miss calls. And so sometimes back again, that natural introvert what I do is I just take 15 minutes ago, okay, scan these emails, I'm going to say what's really important, I'm going to say who called me and going to work out what's going on now prioritize and prioritize. Nobody has 48 hours a day, nobody. And so all you do is I said we really really ruthless with your time and put it to what needs to be served the most. And so I think if you do that, that really gives you that sense of clarity. Not everybody needs to write a list but I just need to see it on paper sometimes. And then of course, you know more about myself. If you need that half an hour as an introvert as I say go for a walk just You're running shoes on go for a run, I look like I'm not a natural runner, I don't really enjoy running. But when I have a lot of things on my mind, and I do a run that don't mean, a lot short, I mean, you know, a quick run of five years for 20 minutes, I somehow think my mind kind of worked itself out. And as you know, many people know exercise is, is the best drug that you can have. You know, it's free, it's natural, and it's the best way. So exercise, go for a walk, make your list, think about it, come back. And somehow, I always end up having that clarity in that perspective, and it hasn't failed me yet. So I'll continue doing that for some time to come. Richard Holmes 25:44 That's, that's great. And with the benefit of hindsight, is the one thing you'd wish you'd known at the beginning of your career. Lisa Jennings 25:55 I think I never appreciate the beginning of my career, and most people in the finance world and whichever route they take work extremely hard. And, and you know, you have to be across so many things, you have to be adaptable, you have to be efficient, you have to meet a lot of stakeholder needs, you're constantly balancing things. And it feels hard, and it's exciting. But also, you know, you've really will work hard in the first formative years, just so you can really find out what type of leader you want to be. So I think I would love to go back and tell myself while you're going to be in a fortunate position in the world, that you are just through the amount of things that you'll naturally be involved in as a finance person, I think some of the things that you'll learn along the way, will be things you never knew you'd be good at. And I think I just remind anyone in this field, you are in a very, very fortunate position, it's a really great career, you get to be objective and influential. And you get to be across many, many things without seeing that you ever really have a personal bias. And I think all that's just such a great perspective to have when you start out your career as well. And that I think, like many careers, this isn't unique to finance, but you know, expect the unexpected, you do will never cause problems, something will come up something multi mountain, I think I've found lately, and it will naturally happen more steals, you'll do something that you're uncomfortable with. And you get used to that very, very quickly. And you know, one good way of feeling the audit profession, which really sets you up very, very well for this was you have to go out with clients, you know, a different client every single week, not only do you have a different team, you have a different client, you have a different set of problems in doing that. And I remember used to look at the work planning PwC, and your whole year was mapped out, you just be blown away thinking oh, my goodness, and you get through it, and you learn a lot and you make a lot of friends and you make a lot of connections and you make little networks. So I think it's a case of just knowing very early on that all that fuzziness and that uncomfortableness will serve you very, very well in the future. And just to harness it and embrace it. Don't resist and it'll take you very, very far. Richard Holmes 28:17 So that's a really good answer. Lisa, you took from then you've seen a lot in your career from a finance accounting point of view what is, what is the future of finance Look, look like therapy? What does the next 10 years hold for us? Lisa Jennings 28:32 Yeah, I often think this one itself, I think it's evolved so much from my not wanting to come into how old they are, but certainly has evolved from the time that I've been there. It's just very, very different. So you know, we talked about the strategic CFO, I think that's already there. It's been we already know people expect that now it's no longer do you have the more traditional accounting function, we expect everyone from the accounts payable team to the comm sustainable all the way through to the CFO to be very forward-thinking in nature and very strategic, and to have good relationships in the business and to know what's going on. That's just a given these days. I think people do talk about that. Sometimes. I think that's already here. I think it's almost past, I think it's a prerequisite. And if you're not kind of in that space, you could be left behind someone. And so I think going forward, kind of touched on earlier, the demand for data, and the need to make decisions is ever more present and you have to make those decisions fairly quickly. If you're not across the key things that are going on you will make maybe not the best decision that you could. So you must invest that time and understanding those decision points to talk about your house. Don't just read a report and base an opinion on that solely. That's just a fact. You need to build a perspective Have around it, to understand what drives that. And you must always be across the insights never present numbers. Never, ever, make sure you know the story that you're telling. Make sure you know what the key messages are, because that's what people will hear. They'll not hear that your EBIT da was this and that, why? How? What will it be in the future? What does it look like? Do you have the right data to make decisions? Are you getting the key messages from the data that you have? I think demand for that will be huge. And also core logic, which is, you know, property data and analytics company. From there, I think I touched on again, speed of business, at the speed of how we transact these days. Just remember to make time to build those relationships very, very easy to bounce from meat to meat to me, if you do that, you'll you'll start to lose those meaningful connections, you'll start to lose some of those outcomes that you need to hear, you'll start to lose some of that challenge some of that, you know, concern about what's going on the business, you'll start to lose it. So make sure you have people around you who are telling you, and if you don't make sure you invest in find those people to bring them up to today. I think one thing I've been heavily involved is reshaping the organization from a resourcing perspective. That's been, you know, really fantastic. To do that, I think the CFO and the finance, social be even more influenced by that as the future about what technologies are coming out what skill sets will we need in the future? How can we help reshape the organization to do that robotics technologies talked about, and you know, cost scope as well, you know, all about the numbers of entity, even though I see all these things, the bottom line is what we report on with just making sure that if you are you know, where the cost constrained environment, our share of wallet from our customers, you know, is decreasing, we'll try to do more for less and making sure it's structured, right? I guess just making sure don't have too much of a focus on the cost for because it can harm efficient growth. And sometimes you need to invest to grow, sometimes you need to spend to make a typical line, I think just have that awareness about if you invest and make those decisions, you'll get the high outcome, you'll bring that revenue in, your margin will expand and you can control all those facets that you can. And if you can't control it directly, then you should definitely be controlling it indirectly. Lots of those kind of things. I think that's where the future of finance will go. Yeah, Richard Holmes 32:33 well, I agree with everything you said that it's going to be an interesting and exciting time for people in the finance space. Lisa Jennings 32:40 Yeah, I think we'll see a lot more people move about the finance function into the business or to different types of roles. And I think we'll start to see more CEOs who will want CFOs, I think we'll start to see more. So you're also on the finance function. And I think previously traditional Korea, which was I wouldn't say limited, but you know, certainly in your space, you will start to see a lot more of that function coming out into other type of places. And that's through training. And, by as I said before, privilege of that role is shaping that. So it's a great, great opportunity that doesn't stop just any finance role, you know, how many natural avenues that come of it. Richard Holmes 33:24 And then going back to culture, we've touched on it a couple of times during this conversation in the tenure of your team is is fantastic. So what does culture mean to you? Why is the culture within your team ecology? So good? Lisa Jennings 33:36 Yeah, I think, to me, culture is you know, what it means to be part of an organization. Um, it's not something that can be imposed on anyone, it can't be imposed on a group of people that have top down, you know, sense of management has to be bottom up. And where that comes from is developing, you know, a sense of belonging and identification with a shared goal and, and some content of what it means to be part of a group when compared to others, you know, things like we both value high tech and novel solutions, we value proper communication, collaboration with customers, to deliver better products, or better beneficial to whatever that goal is, I'm picking some random examples there. And, you know, being aware enough to know our culture, or what that is that meaning that what drives our culture, to be different for different organizations to be different for different teams will be different for different departments. You know, another organization in the same field might keep either belief that the product, you know, keep it inexpensive and rapidly deliver it, whereas other organizations might invest in it and keep it high. And so I guess they're just also examples of what it can be. It can definitely be an organic, you know, group based company differentiator which employees endorse, you know, we share All work towards those values, I think is what culture is. And it can't ever be defined. It's about what the beliefs are about organization, in whether you have you know, values, we have our core values, that can only really be a thing if your whole team believes in it, and you must find what that is for you, and what it is for your team, and what it is for your organization. And, obviously, for speed, the core logic to us, that's what culture is to me. That's, that's fantastic. Richard Holmes 35:32 And you're obviously passionate individually. So what's in you enjoy what you do? what's what's the favorite thing about your career? Lisa Jennings 35:41 Oh, oh, I don't know. Everything. I think I couldn't pick one thing. I think, on reflection, I think one thing to do, or very often is not all the time, but every now and again, when you've just had you know, big arrow a big success or even a you know, something that didn't go your way, I take time to reflect on what you have achieved, any level achieved a lot. And I always look back to the end of the year to the start the end, I think, Wow, did I really think it was starting to be doing the country manager? Or, for example, did I really think I'd be in a strategic project sorted everything out? You know, you know, get the CFO role when I first started core logic, all of those different things. So I think it's everything I think, being brave enough to to put your hand up and do something that you haven't done before. I think, being brave enough as a natural introvert to kind of work beyond those boundaries, I think. Yeah, don't be uncomfortable as cliche but being comfortable being uncomfortable. You know, every sometimes early on in my career, something once a week, I didn't want to do Oh, no, I'll do his stuff up deal. Oh, no, I've got to present your own political departments. And I was like, if I get that deal, it'll be all right. And it never is. And now I do things every day that I would have originally very uncomfortable with. And it's just practice, it's preparation, just as preparation. The more you do it, the better you'll get. And I used to hate that I was always a little bit I think most people are fearful of public speaking and presentations and all used to fill me with dread and not saying I still find it, find it particularly easy. But I'm definitely a lot more competent what I do. And that's just through practice and experience, you're going to be as good with the first time as you do at the 10th time. But by the time you get to the 10th time, that's all people remember. So I think I think Yeah, just put myself out there. And taking the opportunities when I saw them is what I'm most proud of, rather than one specific event. Richard Holmes 37:48 That's in that's great advice, Lisa, I think be you mentioned being comfortable with being uncomfortable. It's never as bad as what you think you had correct? Nothing you do once, once, twice, three times. And it just gets easier and easier in by this. And then you reflect back you think Gee, what was worrying about it? Yeah. Richard Holmes 38:07 That's really good advice. And to finish off, Lisa, Tell, tell me something not many people know about you. Lisa Jennings 38:13 Oh, not many people know about me, or I'm quite an open and transparent person. Even those embarrassing stories I say don't tell anyone that I ended up telling my whole team something. Um, oh, maybe it's for anybody who's all who's listening. Passionate Newcastle United Football supporter, which isn't so popular for many. But I'm originally from Newcastle upon Tyne and northeast of England, the Jordy. And now a lifelong, original season ticket holder there as well and that my passion for that team will never go away. So I something along those lines. Richard Holmes 38:53 Yeah. So when someone has to support them, Lisa, Lisa Jennings 38:56 I know. That was. Richard Holmes 38:59 That's great. Well, I really appreciate you coming on to the podcast. Lisa. I think what we've talked about today's is really insightful. It's you're getting some great advice. I think you'll help a lot of people and I really appreciate your time and have a great day and we'll we'll chat soon. Hey. Lisa Jennings 39:13 Okay, thanks. Bye Bye. Richard Holmes 39:14 Thanks. Bye